first recumbent try: nincom(poop)

["Chainsaw" Jim Johnson]

Philphine posted in 2011 .....

"Yes another project that'll take forever to finish. My internet at home is kinda iffy so I'm posting while the posting's good. Been wanting to try a full on recumbent. this is the one I like best."



"Velokraft nocom(promise), a lightweight carbon fiber masterpiece. I forgot the price, but it's somewhere on the other side of ridiculous. There's no way a hack like me could really copy it, but shoot, why not try anyway? So I think I'll call it... the Philkraft Nincom(poop), 'cause...how bright am I to think I can make something comparable? I actually started back last fall so this is a pic of where I've gotten to at this point."



"The main turquoise section is a women's suspension mountain bike. The head tube is off a scooter. The old seat post was replaced with another small headtube for a try at linked steering, and the lower tube is a piece of conveyor roller from work. The front fork I got off ebay.

It's gonna be heavy 'cause i mean to use the suspension rear end on it. but if it works like I think it should and I like it, I think I can try it again later as a lighter hardtail if I want.

The piece laying under it will be my non-adjustable boom. I just found it a couple days back. It's from a particular girls bike that always saves me on projects. I think if I see the bike cheap from now on, I mean to just buy them as reserve stock. a next bike called a "tropical splash". finding it lets me get started again.

Once I get the boom on I can measure back to where the seat should be. Then from there how to position the seat, then add the rear end once I know how much seat room I need.

I already know I messed up some with how high my feet should be compared to the seat, but I'll keep going and see what I get and if I can work around it. I'm also still reading up on seats and angles and whatnot, and thinking on a couple different chain line ideas.

Well, I've made a mistake I always make, and don't seem to learn from so another project started. Let's see how far I get with this one."

["Chainsaw" Jim Johnson]

Philphine ...... "Not really, only in my head. I had two ideas for a drive line, but with the mistake I made I'm going with a two chain idea. I'm just keeping an eye out for a really small front sprocket. I still hope to finish it eventually.
I also noticed another problem. On the Nocom the rider sits a lot closer to the front wheel, so the boom can be longer in front of the wheel and help with clearance. One thing I've done, the turquois frame that makes up the main body? I found a 20" girls version of the same frame (the turquoise one is a women's 26"). If I set it up the same way I get about 3" closer to the wheel. I may plan around a 16" wheel also. with that and being more careful placing the boom the next time, maybe I can go back to a one chain plan."



"So yeah, I've been thinking on it, but not much else."


Comment ....

"Chainsaw" ..... "I think more than a couple of our 'bent Freaks are looking forward to what you come up with!
You and I have a lot in common with our "working on several projects at once" problem.
I won't push you if you don't push me. Perfection is our main goal. But hurry up I wanna see thing rolling!"


Philphine ...... "return of the nincom(poop)!!!!..er.. the nincom(poop) strikes back? ... nincom(poop)2 this time it's personal?

Anyway, I've always felt bad that this thread never got further than a couple of welded tubes. I've been playing with this for a few weeks, but this time decided to see if I could get to a "downhill from here" point before I started the thread again. It's still not done (why should this bike be any different from the others?), but I think I'm down to working out bugs and details.
So, the restart"



"Like I was saying from before, I used the smaller version of the same mountain bike frame, and a similar girls bike for the boom, only being more careful to give myself clearance from the wheel. also the seat base is on there. I figured this time maybe I should put on the seat and measure out , instead of the other way around. Also left out the linked steering idea. Decided it was an un-necessary complication, and also kept me from sitting as far forward as I wanted. remember the reason for the change from the larger frame."



"Another change. During the time between build starts I came across this seat, and thought it might make a better one than the pads of an indoor exerciser I had before. Some kind of ab exerciser thing. I don't know how it really works (I doubt it does). Lighter I think, and probably won't be as sweaty on the back. Not sure of comfort yet. That will come with some real riding time. looks neat though. I just picked up another yesterday for some future try."

["Chainsaw" Jim Johnson]

Philphine .... "Working out the rear again."



"The rear suspension from the 26" women's mountain bike I started with. I still planned to use it, but this out of the blue idea came. I really don't know what made me decide on this."



"Beyond that I've never played with this type of suspension, and just decided to try it.

It gave me 4 problems though. First I didn't have one, but a look on craigslist showed a bare frame for $30. I called the seller and we agreed on $20, so I picked it up.

2nd, while I was deciding on this I realized I've never seen this suspension on a bike that was made of steel. They're always aluminum. So I went to Walmart (hadn't brought the one I have yet, it was across town) and eyeballed them some. I decided I could copy it enough to make it work out of steel parts from the scrap pile.

3rd, and I didn't realize it 'til I had brought it already, it's a 24" frame. being across town, I picked it up while doing my Sunday at the flea market (same side of town) then down to the Riverwalk bike ride, so it was in the truck for a while with me looking at it through the window (at stops, not gazing at it lovingly careening down the x-way) getting the idea together. I finally saw the 24 on it, and realized it looked kinda small. I guess since it didn't have wheels on it I didn't notice. Luckily though, when I sized it up with my lower tube it would connect to, it matched right up, so I guess a 26" might have sit too high anyway. Still rather have a 26" rear (more wheel options I think), but it'll work.

Last, the suspension pivot didn't match any pivots I had on steel frame bikes, it was too narrow. only about 1/8", but it was just enough that none of about 4 pivots I found around the house would work. Turned out though, all I had to do was cut the kickstand support on one side, spread it enough to fit a steel pivot (really just cutting it let it open enough) then weld the support back. I also added a second piece of metal side to side just to be sure.

Not welded yet, but working out the angles ."

["Chainsaw" Jim Johnson]

In 2012, Philphine posted .... "Front and back welded together, and built enough to sit on."



"A "time will tell" type possible problem, the seat back isn't adjustable. I can only lean it back so far, so I just went ahead and welded the seat brace in place. At best it could have adjusted forward some but I don't think I would have gotten anything out of that. It really need to be able to adjust back more. It would interfere with the suspension though, so might as well weld it in sturdy.

One thing I did do though."



"I used a seat post as part of the suspension frame, so I left the seat post clamp on. Later if I ride it more and work out details, I can cut/bend up a seat post to hold a head rest, and I think a bike rack or bag."

"With the seat in place, I started working out where the crank would be. I did the x-seam measurements and seeing where my heel hit the boom (then measured back the length of my crank arms) and found my boom would be too short. Good thing I have some junk in the parts pile."

["Chainsaw" Jim Johnson]

Philphine .... "I guess Huffy uses about the same size tubing on a lot of bikes. Even better, the piece I added tapers down smaller, so I was able to just hammer it into the short boom I had and it lined right up and looks about the same size once it's hammered in. I meant to grind off some of the paint first, but it fit so tight I didn't want to mess up the fit trying to get it out then putting it back later, so I used a plumbing type gas torch to melt the paint/stickers off and brushed it with a wire brush. It goes in about 1 1/2", welded all around and a couple of holes drilled further back and filled with weld. As best I can tell, with the added piece under the main boom, and the bit of doubling where I added the extra tube, the boom doesn't flex much, if at all so far."



"I don't think the mark will show, but now I could get the right spot for the bottom bracket. just over the "u' on the added piece of tubing.
Like the seat, the boom won't be adjustable. Mostly because I wasn't sure how to do it and have it be sturdy in whatever spot it was adjusted o. So I just tried to be as careful as I could with the measurements."

"Crank in place, but not welded in."



"I was kinda scared of getting it crooked and knowing I'd have a hard time fixing it, plus I rode my bike to work a few nice days. gave me time to think on it anyway. I also dug up all the derailleur chain I could find. think that all I have, scavenged from all the scrap bikes and various bikes just picked up for future ideas or 'cause I got a good deal on them. If they do become project or something, the first thing they'll need is a chain. Also dug up all the old skate wheels I could find that I have cut grooves in for idlers to start working out chainline ideas.

You can also see two goose necks on it. it's a threadless stem (I don't know the reason for those. I don't much like them). One goose neck is off a WCC chopper to hold the fork in place. I need to see if a bike shop can cut some threads in it for me (had another fork like this done a few years back), or just find some kind of clamp for the purpose. The other is for a tiller type deal I've seen on other recumbents, including the Nocom. I planned to cut and extend it.

edit: forgot, since I tried to keep the rear suspension at it's stock height, I was able to put a kickstand on it."

"Like I said, I was trying to get to a "downhill from here" point and I think this is it. Took this pic after about riding it 1/2 mile or so."



"As mentions, still lots of bugs and details to be worked out, but I think it'll be a rider."

["Chainsaw" Jim Johnson]

In 2013, Philphine posted ..... "The seat isn't too bad. need more riding to know for sure. I could feel one roller in my back more then the others. I'll have to see once I ride it more and further. The crank I think I got positioned pretty good. I noticed I can either slouch or sit more upright in the seat and change both seat and crank position a little. I guess that'll help a little to if I can find a sweet spot."



"The idlers will probably need some more thinking. I've used an idler with two grooves before, but on this it wasn't working right. The slack side was dragging really bad. It took me a minute to realize my mistake. Before when I did this, the chains ran on either side of the idler, so they both turned it in the same direction. With them on the same side they fight each other. It had me pretty down, but the solution was as simple as putting oil on the idler. I guess the wheel being urethane wasn't helping either, but being slick the slack side slides over it pretty easily now when you pedal. I'd still like to see if maybe I can find two thin side by side idlers later if I can (and can afford them. I also forgot I had just kind of tacked then in, so they twist a bit under pedal force. I'll weld them in better next time I have it at work."

"The gooseneck lengthened with some shortened handlebars on it."



"Just some emt to extend it. There's no weight on it so I hope it'll be strong enough. Seems a little cramped, but not too bad. sitting down and getting up was a little hard at first, but it turns out if I just turn the handlebars about 90deg, the "cockpit" opens up and I can get out easy. Turning the front wheel sideways also keeps it from trying to roll out from under me when I try to stand, and I can grab the goose neck right where it goes into the headtube to lever myself up. It kind of accidentally works out good for getting on and off.

So that's where I am. Still not done, but much more complete. Starting to look for brake and gear bits and work out the finishing. So now it's more a proper build."

"Oh yeah. I guess for people more into recumbents, I know it doesn't look anything like a Nocom. If anything, it looks a little like a Catbike
Musashi. But the Nocom was my original inspiration, so it stays the Nincom(poop)."

"Cut up a couple of seat posts angled to clear the main seat and position a bike rack at the right angle."



"I think it'll work. I also pulled the plugs out of the top of the seat frame and some of those bar end lights fit right in them, so it has tail lights. Also hanging onto the top the seat one of the posts was on."

["Chainsaw" Jim Johnson]

Philphine [posted ....



"I think I can use the seat clamp and metal part of the seat frame to make a head/neck rest.

Since the last post I've also lined the idlers up better and welded them in permanently. Along with the bit of oil I don't think I'm going to worry much about changing the chainline unless I luck into a better setup. I got a little dropper type bottle of teflon oil I'll keep with the bike. If nothing else, this bike will have the best lubed chain of any bike I have.

I still don't have any brakes or gears hooked up. The shortened handlebar makes the brake levers I have around the house seem too big at any angle I try to mount them at practically, but I just won some off ebay that I think will take care of that. I also want to just use some friction thumb shifters, but didn't have a front (left) one. I'm seeing cheap sets for $10 or so.

I still need a post for the front derailleur. Seems like the angle it needs to be at might not be possible. I need to find one in the pile or get one so once I know what I'm workng with I can be more serious about putting one on if I can.

Being so low and having no brakes/controls yet, I've been going over to an industrial type area that has very little traffic, especially on the weekends, and did a little more test riding. Maybe a mile or so. really just trying to feel out how maneuverable it is, and trying to see if the seat begins to become uncomfortable. So far not too bad. Hopefully in a week or two I can get some things hooked up and pick up a flag for longer test rides."

"The cockpit, as they call it."



"Kinda lucked out on he brake levers. a used set that didn't seem to get much bidding interest, some cheap falcon thumb shifters and a couple of cheap mirrors. They'll do, but I may change the mirrors latter, they're not convex."

"Front derailleur post tacked on."

["Chainsaw" Jim Johnson]

Philphine ...... "I had a decent derailleur I was needing this size post for, but once i found the tube, it I couldn't find the derailleur. So I found this rusted one to line up the post. I don't want to break the chain to put it on though. hopefully I'll find the other one or pick something up."

"And did a bit of bending on the seat back."



"Don't know if you can see the difference from the past pics, but I bent the section holding the top most roller forward some, so it doesn't feel like the roller under it presses on the back as much. I've only done a little more riding back in the industrial area I mentioned, but I think I can tell a positive difference.

Right now I'm thinking about cutting the bike in half behind the seat bottom, and adding 3" so I can bring the seat back down a little more, and maybe then give it a little adjustability. I'm just feeling like it'll be a better bike if I can get a little more angle on the seat. we'll see..."


Comments ....

Amberwolf .... "If it's rideable, then youv'e done better htna I managed with ReCycle, which is the most similar one I started to build (but never finished).

For idlers, you might look into some of the wheels for clothsline pulleys--some are made of very durable plastic, and are exactly wide enough for a BMX chain (and so will fit any other bike chain, too). I had planned ot use them as the idlers for CrazyBike2's chaindrive but after I went hubmotor I lost track of where they are--I might not even have them anymore, but I got them at Home Depot or Lowes.

Alternately, but more than twice as wide, yet still only able to use one chain, are those little Razor foot-scooter wheels. Notch the plastic of the "tire' for the chain and then you have a complete idler with bearings and mounting hardware. Two per scooter, and they get thrown away alll the time around here, or left in the street after being run over."

Philphine .... "It's rideable, but I still haven't tried a longer ride to know how long the seat will stay comfortable. I think that will be most of the "rideable" weak link.

I'll have to look into the clothes line idlers. Right now I'm pretty happy with the skate wheels. the slack side slides on them easily enough once I'm going, and I'm thinking the urethane would be quieter than chain clicking over nylon or plastic (though I guess truthfully I don't know what they're made of). I've been using the razor wheels on a few other bikes, along with smaller inline wheels too. This past summer I got a bag of the ones that light up. I've put a chain groove in a few (without messing up the lights. Happy about that), but I haven't put one on a bike yet.

It's also heavy. Over 50lbs before I'm done. And with trying to ride it faster to get that sensation of speed sitting low to the ground, it starts to get twitchy. Either from something not being perfectly aligned, or still not being used to the riding position. With all my stretch cruisers I've been happy enough with them that I've never really cared if I got a production stretch (wouldn't pass on a Basman or even a Mcargi copy though), but this is really making me wish I could try one of those 25lb (and less) lowracers once."

Amberwolf ....."If it gets twitchy then you might want to change the steering tube/head angle, or your trail. That's usually what causes that.

for instance, on CrazyBike2, I built it with 24" wheels in mind. Later I changed to a 26" simply because that's what the hubmotors I had were in (it's still that way). At one point I needed to change to a different fork cuz the one I had was pretty crappy and wiggly, and I was going to race it down at the Death Race in Tucson, in 2011. So when I swapped over from the crappy fork to the better one, it raised the front end significantly, changing the head/steering angle too. That meant that above a certain speed (I forget what) it got twitchy, and above that it would get the death wobble, where the wiggles in front would be uncontrollable. As it turned out if I got past that point fast enough, they went away, but I didn't figure that out until long after I crashed at the death race and broke my ankle.


Nowadays, I still use that same fork and a virtually identical front wheel, but I changed the rear form 24" to 20", which again significantly changed the head angle, and removed the twitchies and death wobble entirely.

It also made it more stable at *lower* speeds, which had been a problem all along, where below about 9-10MPH I could barely keep it from tipping over. Now it's more like 7--8MPH, maybe a little lower. At that point I have to just duckwalk it instead of pedalling or riding.

There's ways to calculate all this stuff to be sure it works before building it, but I never tried to figure that out, as experimenting physically is more my style. I don't "do" math very well anyway.



Regarding the seat comfyness: I can only say that I have tried a padded seat, built by me specifically for my body shape/size, contoured for lumbar support, etc., and it really wasn't comfy all that long while riding--though it was so great while just sitting there on the bike with the kickstand down (straightup vertical at the time) that I could *sleep* in it. Nowadays I use a suspended-mesh seat, with padded shoulder/midback rests (because the mesh slid down repeatedly due to my lack of anchor points for it on the frame, so I gave up on keeping it up there rather than modify the seat at the time). I don't have a headrest simply because my head isn't still long enough to keep on it, what with having to look around all the time for idiots of one type or another. The catch with the seatframe for that is it has to be wider than the rider by enough that even with the mesh sag there's no rider contact with the frame around it. Basically makes the seatframe at least twice as wide as a padded seat has to be.


I have a plan to use a suspended-canvas folding beach chair as my seat on the next incarnation, to simplify building the seat, but if that doesn't work out I will just build a new version of what I've been using the last few years successfully.


Idler noise---I've seen another custom-built 'bent around here using those clothesline pulleys, and I couldn't hear them (on the near-silent canal path) as he went past--just the freewheel clicking after he stopped pedalling and started coasting. I was stopped to the side of the path fixing something in my cargo strapping on my trailer.

Doesn't mean they aren't noisy to the *rider* on a quiet path, though.


If you want a lighter bike, you'll probably need to find "better" bikes to build it from--using the old thin chromoly tubing and stuff from '70s/'80s ten speeds and such. For that kind of thing and some plans to make the suspended mesh seat (much better than mine) go to recycledrecumbent.com/ . It ought to save you at least a few pounds. Depending on how heavy your padded seat is, the mesh seat may also save some weight (my mesh seat is at least a few pounds lighter than my padded one, since the mesh is tubing and mesh, and the padded was plywood and thick padding).

It's possible that using much thinner and smaller diameter tubing you could build a lighter bike *even if* you have to make a triangulated multi-tube frame. But if nothing else, swapping out the "cheap bike" frame sections for lighter bits could still save enough weight to be worth it. (though I would build a second bike out of them, and keep the one you have in service until the other is verified working, just for comparisons)."

[philphine]

I had forgotten that this is one of the threads that made it over from the old forum. i'll try to add the info from the new thread I started and you can eliminate the old one if you want.

another past project pulled out to try and complete (or at least get closer to a rider).

this is a pic after re-assembling and a few test rides. I should dig up some of the old pics, but my net time is so limited these days (plus it seems like 6 day work weeks are the norm now, so any free time is limited). I took it apart to add 3" to the wheelbase. I added it behind the seat base so the back section could recline a little more. nothing is adjustable on it seating-wise, and the upper body positioning was kind of cramped. I also added a post for the front derailleur, and switched to a 16" front wheel. 

the bike seems to ride pretty decent. I've never ridden a real laid back recumbent to know how much better it would be, or where mine is lacking (beyond weight, 'cause I know mine is heavy). the last major thing is to work out a head rest, then decide if I want to add the brake/gear cables, or make myself take it apart and paint it first. you know how I am about paint.

but one more completed mean I'm keeping my promise to finish some old ones before I start something new, and I have a garage full of new found stuff and a head full of warped ideas just waiting.

[philphine]

transfer from the other thread

think I have the seat about done

like the main seat, off some other cheap ab machine something that looked about worthless for it's real purpose. I read the top pad is supposed to sit more on your neck than head, but I couldn't get it quite positioned there. it sits more at the bottom of my head and top of my neck. haven't gotten another test ride in, but just sitting it's at least better than trying to hold your head up. lost my luggage rack too, but I'm not too worried about it right now. I thought it could maybe make the bike more practical later, but I can work on rideable now and see if practical is even nessesary later. the seat curve doesn't quite match my back, so I may try bending the tube the pads connect to. I've tried this once, but need to bend them more. hope I don't break them.

also added a front brake cable the last time I was testing. to finish I still need cable guides for the rest. still not quite happy with the brake levers either. I've got things a little cramped and may search for something else. I may have an idler issue to deal with too, if I ride it more often. looping the driven side over the idler is tearing it up some.

all in all, it seems like it will become a rideable bike. just have to see how the finishing touches come out.